Native Son was banned in parts of the United States because of its obscene language, disturbing parts and promotion of Communism. For example, Do you think the masturbation scene is necessary? If so, what does it add to the overall meaning of the text?
Another question: What do you think would have happened to Bigger had he not murdered Mary Dalton?
I find it interesting that the Native Son was banned in parts of the United States because of promotion of Communism, particularly because i dont think that it necessarily "promoted" it. It just goes to show the ignorance of people of that age.
Also, in regards to what might have happened to Bigger had he not murdered mary dalton : Well first, there essentially would be no story. But, if this were to happen, i could see Bigger working for the Dalton's for a long time. I think his relationship with mary would get closer and closer, after they moved past the awkwardness of her drunken night. Also, i think Bigger would at first be naive to the idea that the Daltons weren't truly looking out for the blacks; in fact they were treating them badly by making them pay extra for their insufficient housing, and sending them ping pong tables when they don't even need them. Once Bigger caught on to this however, I think he would grow to outsmart them and do good for their community. I guess i have more faith in Bigger than I should!
I find it understandable that Native Son was banned in some parts of the country. However, I feel that this is not due to any sort of promotion of Communism. I feel if anything, this book is a criticism of Communism. I feel that the characters of Mary and Jan take a position in which they promote uncomfortable practices when they are promoting Communism. In fact, the death of Mary could almost be seen as the death of Communism, as no other Communist character comes to promote their belief system on anybody else. For the rest of the novel, Jan is more “Jan the human being” when he interacts with Bigger, rather than “Jan the Communist.” So, if anything, Richard Wright is doing the opposite of promoting Communism. Just because a book has a Communist main character does not mean that it is promoting Communism. I would be interested to see what other people think about that.
In terms of what would have happened to Bigger, I think there is a fairly clear answer. Based on his description of his life in the Dalton home, Bigger would have grown unbelievably uncomfortable in the household, especially because of Mary and the way that she and Jan kept pushing their Communist views upon him while making him do things that he did not want to. I think this would have built up to Bigger eventually quitting his job. This would lead to one of two paths. Either his mother would have forced him to take a different job, or he would continue the life of crime that he had with his gang until he got caught and went to jail. I know it seems very pessimistic, but based on the way that Bigger said he felt and the way that he acted outside of the Dalton home, it seems fairly logical.
It seems to make sense that this book was widely banned at the time of its release. The violence in this book contains both sexual and interracial aspects adding to its shock factor. To people living in America at the time of the novel's publishing, these themes were unacceptable. The obscene language does not seem to be as strong a motivation for banning. The promotion of Communism within the novel seems a possible motivation for banning this novel. Richard Wright was a member of the Communist Party, and the Communisct characters in the novel, the lawyer Max and the boyfriend Jan, both play rather heroic roles. Both Jan and Max face discrimination as Communists, and the both come to understand the issues inherent in society regarding racism. Wright obviously paints the two in a positive light.
Unfortunately, I have the "ghetto Edition" of the novel and did not read the masturbation scene. It may have been necessary in the novel to show the way Bigger had trouble dealing with feeling oppressed in society, forcing him to find a release in that sort of physical way like he found with Bessie.
Had Bigger not killed Mary Dalton he would have killed someone else. Bigger continually had dreams foreshadowing such an occurance. If he had not killed anyone he would have likely found himself in a situation where his proximity to a white woman made him the subject of rape accusations or something along those lines. I think it is unlikely that he would have never been in such a situation because he is a character meant to represent the oppressed black society, especially the young male members of that group.
In my book there was no masturbation scene, so clearly the publishers at that time deemed the scene unnecessary. I think I probably still got the same impression of Bigger as everyone who read that scene, but I don't think it's right that they cut part of Wright's writing and intention out of my version.
Even though this isn't the question Zoe posed, since this is a more casual blog, I want to talk about what I think would have happened if Bigger didn't burn Mary. As I was reading the scene when he put her in the furnace, all I could think about was how stupid he was being. If he left her in the bed, I don't think her death would have been deemed a murder. I think they would have assumed it was alcohol poisoning or something along those lines. I don't know if this makes me sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist or something, but it's just interesting that he could have gotten away with the murder.
I definetly agree with Chris in that I think the book was banned under the pretense of being obscene, disturbing, and promoting Communisim, but was really deemed offense because of the interracial aspects of the novel.
I feel like if Bigger had not killed Mary Dalton he would have ended up commiting some other crime as a result of the society's view towards him, and the manner in which he lived his life. Bigger even seems to think himself that he was always destined to commit some great crime, it just would have been the same story in a different situation.
I'd like to know what people think about Max in comparison to Jan. Jan introduces Bigger to Max and has him take his case, and they are both members of the communist party, however they are extremely different in almost every other way. Jan, just like Mary seems to be discriminating and condescending to Bigger without being aware of it. Max on the other hand seems to be much more attuned to Bigger's feelings, and has a deeper understanding of the struggles he faced (this is mostly so because he serves as the character through who Wright's opinions, main message, and personal voice seem to come through). Why doesn't Jan understand Bigger the way Max does?
Also Bigger is constantly looking for a connection in the world, yet he doesn't ever look to his family for that, why? His younger brother looks up to him, and longs to be a part of his life, why does Bigger choose to ignore that responsibility? Does he not want his brother to emulate him because he knows he is destined to disappoint him?
Finally, I still have to say that I don't believe we can say that Bigger would not have raped Mary if her mother had not walked in. The only thing that would have stopped him would be his fear, and the way the scene is described, he is so caught up in the moment that he would not have stopped to think about the consequences. When Mrs. Dalton walked in he snapped back into reality and realized just what a dangerous situation he was in. Had she not have, who knows. I don't see this as any more reason to think poorly of him, I just don't think we can use the fact that Bigger raped Bessie and not Mary as evidence of any purposeful decision on Bigger's part. Anyone agree? Disagree?
oh, just saw Elyse's post and I just have to say that I definetly agree. Burning someone is so purpuseful. You can't just be like oh she put herself in there. Mr.s Dalton came into the room that night, "saw" her daughter, alive - so she assumed, and had no idea Bigger was there. What would have led people to believe it was his fault if she was found dead in her bed. Maybe she could have rolled over and suffocated on her pillow like babies sometimes do, what's that called? I think it was definetly a bad idea to move/ burn Mary.
Yeah I'm not surprised at all that Native Son was banned. Basically all interesting books are. I don't know, when I think about Native Son the first thing that pops into my head isn't communism. Although it is a main belief of a lot of the characters, it doesn't seem to be the main focus of the novel.
In my book, the masturbation scene didn't exist so I have no idea if it was necessary or not.
As for obscene language and disturbing parts (masturbation scene included, I guess) that's what made the book scene real. As crude as some of the language was, and as disturbing as the violence and rape scene(s), these aspects of the book made it more powerful. There are parts of Native Son I will always remember, and they aren't the calm, uncontroversial ones.
If Bigger didn't murder Mary Dalton, would he have raped her? I know we sorta brought this up in class, but I honestly can't decide one way or another. I feel like he wouldn't because of how uncomfortable he was around her, but the way it is written in the book it's hard to tell.
Ok, so because I feel that the idea of the masturbation scene has been tossed around a lot so far, I'm going to ask a different question. So, do you think that Bigger really wanted to kill Mary? Because he truly hated her and in the passage that describes her death scene, it says nothing about it being an accident.
Responding to Zo's comment, I find it not suprising that Native Son was banned in parts of the country. I think that it is very crass at parts, such as the masturbation scene which is a little too much information. But, the obscenity really occurs in the death scenes. Bessie's death was brutal. Like Ariel said, I do not think Native Son necessarilly "promoted" communism. It showed that people like Max and Jan were discriminated just like blacks were by the whites. It only showed that communism resulted in trouble for anyone who participated in it. If Bigger had not killed Mary Dalton, I think things would have remained similar to the way they were before. Bigger would hang out with his buddies, rob stores, except for those of white men, avoid work, and he would probably get fired from working at the Daltons because he never really wanted the job in the first place. Although Bigger did not plan on it happening, Mary Dalton's death was a defining moment in his life and it changed everything. Ariel proposed another question that I have a strong opinion about. Bigger did not want to kill Mary. I believe it was purely accidental and in his description of the death scene, most of the hatred can be blamed on his resentment and feelings towards the white community as a whole.
I'm really curious as to other takes on this. So...
When were you on Bigger's side? When weren't you? And do you think, in the end, that he deserved to die?
And to take it to the next level... do you think Wright wanted you, as the reader, to change your mind about Bigger when you did (or didn't)?
I already shared a bit of this in class. I was at first completely on Bigger's side, until he threatened to kill Bessie when they were talking at her place. And then after Max's speech, I was on Bigger's side again. I do not think that he deserved to die.
I think Wright wanted this confused progression to occur, but this is why I'm asking this question. I want to know if everyone else shared this progression of judgment of Bigger. I'm not sure which would be more intriguing: if our views are the same (and thus Wright's writing is that much more impressive) or if they differ (giving us much to debate about).
Native Son made the reader squirm not just because it brought racial tensions to the surface, but because it was graphic and raw. Sometimes when people feel unsettled by literature, they ban it. They burn it. On the bright side, I'm sure this only made kids search for copies and pass it around behind the teacher's back.
My copy of the Native Son didn't have the masturbation scene, and when I read it, I thought it made no difference in the overall message that the novel was making. I personally thought that it made Bigger incredibly unlikeable- not like the brutal murders and scheme for kidnapping money made him charming... But, I thought it was an incredibly obnoxious scene.
I think that if Bigger hadn't murdered Mary Dalton he would have lashed out on Bessie, or Gus, or the store owner, etc. I think that it's likely that he would have found an outlet in violence eventually and tuned into this form of expression.
I do not think that Bigger would have raped Mary if given the chance because I don’t think he felt free of social standards at that point. His whole life, Bigger has been oppressed by society, and this gave him a rage that consumed his soul. It was not until after he disposed of the body did he feel free and gave in to his hedonistic, ‘I can do what I want,’ attitude. To me, the two most important Biggers are the pre and post Mary murder Biggers. One is an angry slave, and one is a violent rebel.
Well, I still want to know what people would do if they were Bigger, right after the ship sailed on Mary’s suffocation. You have not chopped her up yet.
So I was just talking to Alicia online and we had this whole conversation about if there is a hero in Native Son. We decided that Bigger is definitely not a hero and that there just isn't one, but the closest is Max. What do you guys think?
Tommy - I dont think we can answer that. The average person would say "I'd call the police and explain that it was an accident" but that would be silly, as we are not black in a black-hating society. And if any of us say we'd do exactly what Bigger did, well, that's either extremely honest or extremely creepy. So what's your answer?
(ps my mom is watching Jane Eyre the movie right now. I watched some but couldnt take it - the actress who plays Jane is doing it ALL WRONG!)
In general, I thought that Native Son was a very good book. There were parts that, to me, were out there, but I guess that's what makes the book controversial.
The violence in Native Son is inherent to the story. The scene that took me off guard was the decapitation of Mary Dalton. That threw me for a loop. The rest of the violence seemed paltry compared to that scene.
My book had the masturbation scene. I didn't think much of it at the time, because I didn't realize that Bigger was masturbating until at his trial, when the prosecutor said that Bigger masturbated. I see how the scene can be viewed as controversial because it's about masturbation.
The obscene language was not so bad, compared to today's standards. There's nothing else to say.
To be honest, with the exception of Mary's Dalton death, I wasn't shocked by the book. Perhaps I've become desensitized to taboo subjects over the years of watching, reading and hearing obscene things. I wonder how many people today, in 2008, would be shocked by Native Son.
My grievance with Native Son was that Richard Wright kept on hitting the reader with his message for equality. I understand that it's an important topic, but I don't need to be suffocated with it. The third book, when Max gives his defense for Bigger, bored me. I feel bad to say this, but I was bored reading about an effort to start social change. I chalk it up to Wright and his use of dialogue, and not me being apathetic.
(Speaking of Jane Eyre adaptations, I read that Juno herself, Ellen Page, is starring as Jane in a new movie. Also, Wide Sargasso Sea was made into a movie and that's going to be on tv sometime next week, in case anyone is wondering)
Unfortunately, I did not get the good copy of the book. I have the "abridged" version so i don't have that scene. However, I can say that the scene is not necessary because I read my version and I did not find myself wondering why the book lacked a masturbation scene. But I can comment on the vulgarity of the rest of the novel. Personally, the rudeness and crude language add a lot of realism to the novel. Bigger is a member of a community of people who have been oppressed for centuries. As a result it is to be expected that he curses a lot. It would have been strange if the book hadn't included that language and it would have taken away from the characterization of Bigger in the novel.
I can understand why the promotion of communism caused problems with American readers. The book was published during the cold war when it was not acceptable to mention communism in any sort of positive light. Wright goes so far in the novel as to glorify communism which definitely did not sit well with the vast majority of Americans at the time. So, in order to counter the perceived threat that the book posed, it was banned.
If Bigger had not killed Mary the novel would not have been nearly as interesting. It is possible that Bigger could have escaped completely unscathed, but in all likelihood, Mary would tell someone about the incident. She may not do it intentionally, but she might have said it to someone to prove how tolerant of black people she was. This would ultimately reach the ears of the radicals in the racist society who would undoubtedly hurt or kill Bigger.
There were many comments that people brought up that I thought were really interesting. First of all, the communism. I disagree with part of what Glen about its role in the book. At the time that Native Son was written, Richard Wright was still a member of the Communist party. While I definitely don’t think that he was criticizing communism, I don’t think he was sure of it either. More than anything, Wright was probably trying to sort out his own feelings through writing. He gives mixed messages through the characters, Jan and Max, because even though they are on Bigger's side, they don't seem to understand Bigger's point of view completely and they ultimately are helpless in saving him. Wright ended up leaving the Communist party in 1944 anyway (four years after Native Son was written), so this shows that he may have been unsure of it when the book was written.
I also think that we should focus on what Olivia said about when we were/were not on Bigger's side. I pretty much changed my mind at the same points of the book, which shows that it was probably intentional. I think that Wright intended to create a character who is not 100% good or bad. It causes readers to change their minds and it almost emulates the confusion that Bigger faces and that the racial inequality causes.
While I was reading the book, I was actually screaming at bigger like AHHH WHY ARE YOU SO DUMB?! If I were in his position, I would not gone to the police about it. However, I would have been more careful to make sure that I burned all parts of her body. Then I would definitely have cleaned out the furnace. Or, I would have taken her body and thrown it away in some random part of town. I think it was very stupid of Bigger to be so careless in burning Mary's body and writing a ransom note - that's just greedy. It was also not very smart for him to bolt after the discovery of the body. He could still have pinned the death on Jan, but with his flight, he made it obvious that he had committed the crime.
But I saw a movie once that said that when you commit murder you make about 25 mistakes, and later you remember only about 6 of them. So I guess I can't blame Bigger for his missteps without knowing how it feels to be in his position.
I wondered about the purpose of the title of the novel. "Native Son" - is it hinting that Bigger is the product of discrimination in the country?
This idea frequently appears in the novel. When Bigger fights with Guss he threatens to dig his belly-button out. This is significant. He specifically targets a belly-button, which connects a baby to his mother and, symbolically, a native to his nation. Bigger wants to cut the connection he has with his native country. He hates the world he is born into. He resents the inequality he faces, especially when he dreams of flying in vain. His burning hatred is what causes him to become a violent criminal.
Probably, this is why the novel was so controversial. At this time in US, people were proud of their country, as a victor of WWI. They took so much pride in their governmental system and did not tolerate any other. They did not want communist ideas to be heard and undermine their success. People certainly would not have been glad to read a novel by a communist writer, criticizing America and advocating for a change.
sorry this is a day late- i totally get what elyse and julia are saying. i thought the same exact thing. i kept thinking of ways he could somehow get away with what he did to Mary and even to Bessie, which was just awful. I feel like because i got to know all the crevices of Bigger's character, I couldn't help but feel "protective" as a reader over him. It didn't seem to make sense, but that's the way it was. After reading this book, i realized that there is no such thing as a "criminal mind." the need to survive often drives people to murder. I also think that Bigger's pride in his murder of Mary stems from the primal need to survive. If he detests himself after what he did, he will suffer for it. He takes pride in this because the need to survive and be in control frees him from his fear.
for zoe's question... i think the masturbation scene does give a sense of realism to Bigger as a character. He's definetely not a role model for kids, but he's not this alluring anti-hero either. I mean, i think we're used to loving heroes like Finny in A Separate Peace, who's just so good. Bigger's really not likable, and he's hard to understand. He's a fictional character but you know he existed somewhere in Chicago in the 1930's.
23 comments:
Native Son was banned in parts of the United States because of its obscene language, disturbing parts and promotion of Communism.
For example,
Do you think the masturbation scene is necessary? If so, what does it add to the overall meaning of the text?
Another question:
What do you think would have happened to Bigger had he not murdered Mary Dalton?
I find it interesting that the Native Son was banned in parts of the United States because of promotion of Communism, particularly because i dont think that it necessarily "promoted" it. It just goes to show the ignorance of people of that age.
Also, in regards to what might have happened to Bigger had he not murdered mary dalton :
Well first, there essentially would be no story. But, if this were to happen, i could see Bigger working for the Dalton's for a long time. I think his relationship with mary would get closer and closer, after they moved past the awkwardness of her drunken night. Also, i think Bigger would at first be naive to the idea that the Daltons weren't truly looking out for the blacks; in fact they were treating them badly by making them pay extra for their insufficient housing, and sending them ping pong tables when they don't even need them. Once Bigger caught on to this however, I think he would grow to outsmart them and do good for their community. I guess i have more faith in Bigger than I should!
I find it understandable that Native Son was banned in some parts of the country. However, I feel that this is not due to any sort of promotion of Communism. I feel if anything, this book is a criticism of Communism. I feel that the characters of Mary and Jan take a position in which they promote uncomfortable practices when they are promoting Communism. In fact, the death of Mary could almost be seen as the death of Communism, as no other Communist character comes to promote their belief system on anybody else. For the rest of the novel, Jan is more “Jan the human being” when he interacts with Bigger, rather than “Jan the Communist.” So, if anything, Richard Wright is doing the opposite of promoting Communism. Just because a book has a Communist main character does not mean that it is promoting Communism. I would be interested to see what other people think about that.
In terms of what would have happened to Bigger, I think there is a fairly clear answer. Based on his description of his life in the Dalton home, Bigger would have grown unbelievably uncomfortable in the household, especially because of Mary and the way that she and Jan kept pushing their Communist views upon him while making him do things that he did not want to. I think this would have built up to Bigger eventually quitting his job. This would lead to one of two paths. Either his mother would have forced him to take a different job, or he would continue the life of crime that he had with his gang until he got caught and went to jail. I know it seems very pessimistic, but based on the way that Bigger said he felt and the way that he acted outside of the Dalton home, it seems fairly logical.
It seems to make sense that this book was widely banned at the time of its release. The violence in this book contains both sexual and interracial aspects adding to its shock factor. To people living in America at the time of the novel's publishing, these themes were unacceptable. The obscene language does not seem to be as strong a motivation for banning. The promotion of Communism within the novel seems a possible motivation for banning this novel. Richard Wright was a member of the Communist Party, and the Communisct characters in the novel, the lawyer Max and the boyfriend Jan, both play rather heroic roles. Both Jan and Max face discrimination as Communists, and the both come to understand the issues inherent in society regarding racism. Wright obviously paints the two in a positive light.
Unfortunately, I have the "ghetto Edition" of the novel and did not read the masturbation scene. It may have been necessary in the novel to show the way Bigger had trouble dealing with feeling oppressed in society, forcing him to find a release in that sort of physical way like he found with Bessie.
Had Bigger not killed Mary Dalton he would have killed someone else. Bigger continually had dreams foreshadowing such an occurance. If he had not killed anyone he would have likely found himself in a situation where his proximity to a white woman made him the subject of rape accusations or something along those lines. I think it is unlikely that he would have never been in such a situation because he is a character meant to represent the oppressed black society, especially the young male members of that group.
In my book there was no masturbation scene, so clearly the publishers at that time deemed the scene unnecessary. I think I probably still got the same impression of Bigger as everyone who read that scene, but I don't think it's right that they cut part of Wright's writing and intention out of my version.
Even though this isn't the question Zoe posed, since this is a more casual blog, I want to talk about what I think would have happened if Bigger didn't burn Mary. As I was reading the scene when he put her in the furnace, all I could think about was how stupid he was being. If he left her in the bed, I don't think her death would have been deemed a murder. I think they would have assumed it was alcohol poisoning or something along those lines. I don't know if this makes me sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist or something, but it's just interesting that he could have gotten away with the murder.
I definetly agree with Chris in that I think the book was banned under the pretense of being obscene, disturbing, and promoting Communisim, but was really deemed offense because of the interracial aspects of the novel.
I feel like if Bigger had not killed Mary Dalton he would have ended up commiting some other crime as a result of the society's view towards him, and the manner in which he lived his life. Bigger even seems to think himself that he was always destined to commit some great crime, it just would have been the same story in a different situation.
I'd like to know what people think about Max in comparison to Jan. Jan introduces Bigger to Max and has him take his case, and they are both members of the communist party, however they are extremely different in almost every other way. Jan, just like Mary seems to be discriminating and condescending to Bigger without being aware of it. Max on the other hand seems to be much more attuned to Bigger's feelings, and has a deeper understanding of the struggles he faced (this is mostly so because he serves as the character through who Wright's opinions, main message, and personal voice seem to come through). Why doesn't Jan understand Bigger the way Max does?
Also Bigger is constantly looking for a connection in the world, yet he doesn't ever look to his family for that, why? His younger brother looks up to him, and longs to be a part of his life, why does Bigger choose to ignore that responsibility? Does he not want his brother to emulate him because he knows he is destined to disappoint him?
Finally, I still have to say that I don't believe we can say that Bigger would not have raped Mary if her mother had not walked in. The only thing that would have stopped him would be his fear, and the way the scene is described, he is so caught up in the moment that he would not have stopped to think about the consequences. When Mrs. Dalton walked in he snapped back into reality and realized just what a dangerous situation he was in. Had she not have, who knows. I don't see this as any more reason to think poorly of him, I just don't think we can use the fact that Bigger raped Bessie and not Mary as evidence of any purposeful decision on Bigger's part. Anyone agree? Disagree?
oh, just saw Elyse's post and I just have to say that I definetly agree. Burning someone is so purpuseful. You can't just be like oh she put herself in there. Mr.s Dalton came into the room that night, "saw" her daughter, alive - so she assumed, and had no idea Bigger was there. What would have led people to believe it was his fault if she was found dead in her bed. Maybe she could have rolled over and suffocated on her pillow like babies sometimes do, what's that called? I think it was definetly a bad idea to move/ burn Mary.
Yeah I'm not surprised at all that Native Son was banned. Basically all interesting books are. I don't know, when I think about Native Son the first thing that pops into my head isn't communism. Although it is a main belief of a lot of the characters, it doesn't seem to be the main focus of the novel.
In my book, the masturbation scene didn't exist so I have no idea if it was necessary or not.
As for obscene language and disturbing parts (masturbation scene included, I guess) that's what made the book scene real. As crude as some of the language was, and as disturbing as the violence and rape scene(s), these aspects of the book made it more powerful. There are parts of Native Son I will always remember, and they aren't the calm, uncontroversial ones.
If Bigger didn't murder Mary Dalton, would he have raped her? I know we sorta brought this up in class, but I honestly can't decide one way or another. I feel like he wouldn't because of how uncomfortable he was around her, but the way it is written in the book it's hard to tell.
Ok, so because I feel that the idea of the masturbation scene has been tossed around a lot so far, I'm going to ask a different question. So, do you think that Bigger really wanted to kill Mary? Because he truly hated her and in the passage that describes her death scene, it says nothing about it being an accident.
Responding to Zo's comment, I find it not suprising that Native Son was banned in parts of the country. I think that it is very crass at parts, such as the masturbation scene which is a little too much information. But, the obscenity really occurs in the death scenes. Bessie's death was brutal. Like Ariel said, I do not think Native Son necessarilly "promoted" communism. It showed that people like Max and Jan were discriminated just like blacks were by the whites. It only showed that communism resulted in trouble for anyone who participated in it.
If Bigger had not killed Mary Dalton, I think things would have remained similar to the way they were before. Bigger would hang out with his buddies, rob stores, except for those of white men, avoid work, and he would probably get fired from working at the Daltons because he never really wanted the job in the first place. Although Bigger did not plan on it happening, Mary Dalton's death was a defining moment in his life and it changed everything.
Ariel proposed another question that I have a strong opinion about. Bigger did not want to kill Mary. I believe it was purely accidental and in his description of the death scene, most of the hatred can be blamed on his resentment and feelings towards the white community as a whole.
I'm really curious as to other takes on this. So...
When were you on Bigger's side? When weren't you? And do you think, in the end, that he deserved to die?
And to take it to the next level... do you think Wright wanted you, as the reader, to change your mind about Bigger when you did (or didn't)?
I already shared a bit of this in class. I was at first completely on Bigger's side, until he threatened to kill Bessie when they were talking at her place. And then after Max's speech, I was on Bigger's side again. I do not think that he deserved to die.
I think Wright wanted this confused progression to occur, but this is why I'm asking this question. I want to know if everyone else shared this progression of judgment of Bigger. I'm not sure which would be more intriguing: if our views are the same (and thus Wright's writing is that much more impressive) or if they differ (giving us much to debate about).
Native Son made the reader squirm not just because it brought racial tensions to the surface, but because it was graphic and raw. Sometimes when people feel unsettled by literature, they ban it. They burn it. On the bright side, I'm sure this only made kids search for copies and pass it around behind the teacher's back.
My copy of the Native Son didn't have the masturbation scene, and when I read it, I thought it made no difference in the overall message that the novel was making. I personally thought that it made Bigger incredibly unlikeable- not like the brutal murders and scheme for kidnapping money made him charming... But, I thought it was an incredibly obnoxious scene.
I think that if Bigger hadn't murdered Mary Dalton he would have lashed out on Bessie, or Gus, or the store owner, etc. I think that it's likely that he would have found an outlet in violence eventually and tuned into this form of expression.
I do not think that Bigger would have raped Mary if given the chance because I don’t think he felt free of social standards at that point. His whole life, Bigger has been oppressed by society, and this gave him a rage that consumed his soul. It was not until after he disposed of the body did he feel free and gave in to his hedonistic, ‘I can do what I want,’ attitude. To me, the two most important Biggers are the pre and post Mary murder Biggers. One is an angry slave, and one is a violent rebel.
Well, I still want to know what people would do if they were Bigger, right after the ship sailed on Mary’s suffocation. You have not chopped her up yet.
So I was just talking to Alicia online and we had this whole conversation about if there is a hero in Native Son. We decided that Bigger is definitely not a hero and that there just isn't one, but the closest is Max. What do you guys think?
Tommy - I dont think we can answer that. The average person would say "I'd call the police and explain that it was an accident" but that would be silly, as we are not black in a black-hating society. And if any of us say we'd do exactly what Bigger did, well, that's either extremely honest or extremely creepy. So what's your answer?
(ps my mom is watching Jane Eyre the movie right now. I watched some but couldnt take it - the actress who plays Jane is doing it ALL WRONG!)
In general, I thought that Native Son was a very good book. There were parts that, to me, were out there, but I guess that's what makes the book controversial.
The violence in Native Son is inherent to the story. The scene that took me off guard was the decapitation of Mary Dalton. That threw me for a loop. The rest of the violence seemed paltry compared to that scene.
My book had the masturbation scene. I didn't think much of it at the time, because I didn't realize that Bigger was masturbating until at his trial, when the prosecutor said that Bigger masturbated. I see how the scene can be viewed as controversial because it's about masturbation.
The obscene language was not so bad, compared to today's standards. There's nothing else to say.
To be honest, with the exception of Mary's Dalton death, I wasn't shocked by the book. Perhaps I've become desensitized to taboo subjects over the years of watching, reading and hearing obscene things. I wonder how many people today, in 2008, would be shocked by Native Son.
My grievance with Native Son was that Richard Wright kept on hitting the reader with his message for equality. I understand that it's an important topic, but I don't need to be suffocated with it. The third book, when Max gives his defense for Bigger, bored me. I feel bad to say this, but I was bored reading about an effort to start social change. I chalk it up to Wright and his use of dialogue, and not me being apathetic.
(Speaking of Jane Eyre adaptations, I read that Juno herself, Ellen Page, is starring as Jane in a new movie. Also, Wide Sargasso Sea was made into a movie and that's going to be on tv sometime next week, in case anyone is wondering)
Unfortunately, I did not get the good copy of the book. I have the "abridged" version so i don't have that scene. However, I can say that the scene is not necessary because I read my version and I did not find myself wondering why the book lacked a masturbation scene. But I can comment on the vulgarity of the rest of the novel. Personally, the rudeness and crude language add a lot of realism to the novel. Bigger is a member of a community of people who have been oppressed for centuries. As a result it is to be expected that he curses a lot. It would have been strange if the book hadn't included that language and it would have taken away from the characterization of Bigger in the novel.
I can understand why the promotion of communism caused problems with American readers. The book was published during the cold war when it was not acceptable to mention communism in any sort of positive light. Wright goes so far in the novel as to glorify communism which definitely did not sit well with the vast majority of Americans at the time. So, in order to counter the perceived threat that the book posed, it was banned.
If Bigger had not killed Mary the novel would not have been nearly as interesting. It is possible that Bigger could have escaped completely unscathed, but in all likelihood, Mary would tell someone about the incident. She may not do it intentionally, but she might have said it to someone to prove how tolerant of black people she was. This would ultimately reach the ears of the radicals in the racist society who would undoubtedly hurt or kill Bigger.
There were many comments that people brought up that I thought were really interesting. First of all, the communism. I disagree with part of what Glen about its role in the book. At the time that Native Son was written, Richard Wright was still a member of the Communist party. While I definitely don’t think that he was criticizing communism, I don’t think he was sure of it either. More than anything, Wright was probably trying to sort out his own feelings through writing. He gives mixed messages through the characters, Jan and Max, because even though they are on Bigger's side, they don't seem to understand Bigger's point of view completely and they ultimately are helpless in saving him. Wright ended up leaving the Communist party in 1944 anyway (four years after Native Son was written), so this shows that he may have been unsure of it when the book was written.
I also think that we should focus on what Olivia said about when we were/were not on Bigger's side. I pretty much changed my mind at the same points of the book, which shows that it was probably intentional. I think that Wright intended to create a character who is not 100% good or bad. It causes readers to change their minds and it almost emulates the confusion that Bigger faces and that the racial inequality causes.
In response to Tommy's question -
While I was reading the book, I was actually screaming at bigger like AHHH WHY ARE YOU SO DUMB?! If I were in his position, I would not gone to the police about it. However, I would have been more careful to make sure that I burned all parts of her body. Then I would definitely have cleaned out the furnace. Or, I would have taken her body and thrown it away in some random part of town. I think it was very stupid of Bigger to be so careless in burning Mary's body and writing a ransom note - that's just greedy. It was also not very smart for him to bolt after the discovery of the body. He could still have pinned the death on Jan, but with his flight, he made it obvious that he had committed the crime.
But I saw a movie once that said that when you commit murder you make about 25 mistakes, and later you remember only about 6 of them. So I guess I can't blame Bigger for his missteps without knowing how it feels to be in his position.
I wondered about the purpose of the title of the novel. "Native Son" - is it hinting that Bigger is the product of discrimination in the country?
This idea frequently appears in the novel. When Bigger fights with Guss he threatens to dig his belly-button out. This is significant. He specifically targets a belly-button, which connects a baby to his mother and, symbolically, a native to his nation. Bigger wants to cut the connection he has with his native country. He hates the world he is born into. He resents the inequality he faces, especially when he dreams of flying in vain. His burning hatred is what causes him to become a violent criminal.
Probably, this is why the novel was so controversial. At this time in US, people were proud of their country, as a victor of WWI. They took so much pride in their governmental system and did not tolerate any other. They did not want communist ideas to be heard and undermine their success. People certainly would not have been glad to read a novel by a communist writer, criticizing America and advocating for a change.
sorry this is a day late-
i totally get what elyse and julia are saying. i thought the same exact thing. i kept thinking of ways he could somehow get away with what he did to Mary and even to Bessie, which was just awful. I feel like because i got to know all the crevices of Bigger's character, I couldn't help but feel "protective" as a reader over him. It didn't seem to make sense, but that's the way it was.
After reading this book, i realized that there is no such thing as a "criminal mind." the need to survive often drives people to murder. I also think that Bigger's pride in his murder of Mary stems from the primal need to survive. If he detests himself after what he did, he will suffer for it. He takes pride in this because the need to survive and be in control frees him from his fear.
for zoe's question...
i think the masturbation scene does give a sense of realism to Bigger as a character. He's definetely not a role model for kids, but he's not this alluring anti-hero either. I mean, i think we're used to loving heroes like Finny in A Separate Peace, who's just so good. Bigger's really not likable, and he's hard to understand. He's a fictional character but you know he existed somewhere in Chicago in the 1930's.
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