The fact that the whiskey priest says that the lieutenant is a good man at the end of tonight’s reading really shows how selfless he is. We have evidence from before of this, as he continued the mass when being surrounded and he was sympathetic towards the mestizo even though he believed him to be betraying him. This last chapter is about finding optimism in the least likely of places, as the priest finds companionship and sympathy from men in the jail. It’s a very ironic situation, especially when the religious woman comes across as the negative force in the jail. After a scene of finding good in the seemingly bad, it makes sense to end the chapter with the priest finding good in the lieutenant when he is seemingly bad to both the priest and to the reader.
There is also a great amount of dramatic irony in the situation because the lieutenant gives the man he detests and is searching for money – that just makes me think that when he finally does find and recognize the priest, the lieutenant will most likely be even more mad because he has now passed over him twice.
Also, I have to mention the drinking scene. Greene uses the wine as a bridge between the religious aspects of the whiskey priest’s life and the sins of his life, which is characterized by his weakness for alcohol. Greene connects the things the priest is proud of with the things he is ashamed of in this scene, where he so desperately wants the wine for mass but also observes it being consumed in the same way that caused the degradation of his self-worth.
Oh, and Padre Jose is being apathetic again. Shocking.
Ok, I would like to start with the complete and utter pointlessness of the conversation about alcohol. I was so unbelievably irritated by this 10 or 11 page long surplus of random dialogue. However, the plot after this conversation made up for it. I was intrigued by the next few scenes (the chase, in the prison, meeting up with the beggar again, etc). But throughout all of these insightful lines and descriptive narration, there is one specific line that I cannot get over. When the lieutenant is talking to the WP (then called Montez) and tells him to keave the jail. "...He asked 'Where are you going?' 'God knows.' 'You are all alike, you people. You never learn the truth - that God knows nothing.'" The reason I was disturbed by this is that the lieutenant is supposedly anti-god and religion, considering that he is heading a sector of policemen raging a war against the institution, and yet he exclaims that God knows nothing. This statement points out that he indeed believes God exists. Otherwise, how could a nonexistent figure know or not know anything. Maybe I am reading too much into this, but it makes me wonder about the police force and their role in all of this.
It seems that most of the people in the jail (minus the "pleasured couple") hold religion above all else, and, if it had not been pitch black would have, stared at him in wonder and awe. Even when the WP exclaims that he is not a martyr in any way, specifically the pious woman tells him that he is wrong, despite his sins. Then, according to the previous quote, the policemen raid homes, towns, and bars for any christian item or holy person and have a large sum of money on the WP's head, but they believe that God exists. It makes their entire expedition pointless.
I thought that the previous chapter’s narration was very introspective. The reader hears the priest’s thoughts and self-observations. However, the beginning of this chapter’s narration is different. It is more about the actions of the priest rather than his thoughts. There is a lot more dialogue in this chapter than in previous chapters.
The whole scene with the alcohol is interesting. The priest’s desire to get the wine for the mass really actually gave him a purpose. For some reason he never really seemed all that much like a priest. However, his desire to obtain the wine for the service really made me believe that he wanted to be a priest. Yet, he fails to obtain the wine after the Governor’s cousin and the jefe drink all of the wine. This again leaves the priest with no purpose and an uncertainty of what to do now.
The fact that the Lieutenant keeps letting the priest get away is getting annoying. It is ironic that he is so determined to find the priest, however, he cannot recognize the priest after seeing him for the second time. I think that the Lieutenant is too determined and focused.
I agree with Olivia that it is really ironic that the Lieutenant gives the priest some money.
Ok so there was a part of chapter two that seemed very Crime and Punishment-esque to me. The beggar is saying how he sometimes wishes he could kill other people for food, and while the other people say it would be wrong, he justifies it by saying that a man has to do what he can to eat. The whole idea of justifying how much someone else's life is worth was nearly identical to the philosophies that were the basis of Crime and Punishment.
I also thought the interaction between the whiskey priest and padre jose (who i originally thought were the same person) was very interesting. It distinguishes the differences between them and finally characterizes the whiskey priest as a PRIEST. "'You're a good man, Jose. I've always known that.'" is probably the most priest-ish thing he has said the whole novel, and shows the differences between them he had discussed in the previous chapter.
Also, the wine vs. brandy thing was really annoying. It makes sense why he would want wine and all, but did they really have to spend like twenty pages emphasizing this?
I agree with Zoe that the voice of the novel shifts back to being detached in the chapter two. IT simply describes and narrates what happends to the Whiskey Priest.
The recurring theme of wine associated with religion in present again in the second chapter. The wine represents the religion. the Governor's cousin stands for the present persecution of religion by drinking away the wine. The priest, although much neglegent about the religion before, feels sorrow, making him a preserver of the religion.
The third chapter reminded me of Crime and Punishment. The Whiskey priest makes me recall Raskolnikov and the lieutenant is like Porfiry; Porfiry and the lieutenant both are extremely determined and eager to catch Raskol and the priest but both let their subjects pass because of some weird coincidence or mistake.
the whiskey priest seems to be like Raskolnikov in many ways. They both spend a vast majority of their time pondering philosophical questions. They look for meaning in their lives and search for answers to questions that many would prefere to leave alone, questions that cannot be answered. Such as can one life be deemed 'more important' than another, and thus is it ever right or just to take one life to spare another. They both at times see themselves as extraordinary, or possessing some greater purpose. Both struggle with religion, though in different senses. I'd be really interested to see how these two characters would get along. What would they talk about in coversation? Would they be more likely to agree on things or disagree? Would they just sit in silence staring at one another pondering the other and the world? Hmm.
The title of the book has really got me interested "The Power and The Glory" ... yes from the Lord's prayer, but in context very interesting. People in this place seem to have very little power and very little glory, and thus they find themselves unable to put faith in religion, however often in religion the point is that suffering on earth, and stilling living piously will lead to eternal happiness in the kingdom of heaven. Save for Mrs. Fellows, few people seem to find this to be adequate solace, or enough motivation to live by the church's doctrine when faced with adversity. Interesting.
Sidenote - If they mention vultures one more time it is going to get ugly!
I feel bad for the whiskey preist. But I must say the lieutenant fascinates me endlessly. His view of the world, his perception of what his duty is, his reasoning for everything make him one of my favorite characters. Unlike Porifry who was doing his job but i hated because I just didn't like his vibe, the lieutenant has something about him. And i think the whiskey priest sees that too, which is why he calls him a good man. I also feel that teh whiskey priest can't balme the lieutenant for his beliefs because he proves all of them. Thus though they do not agree with the other's religious philosophys they can agree that the WP has sinned, and should be held responsible for that.
It's funny how a book about so many apathetic people has got me so riled up.
This blog post is kind of ranty, and I haven't said much about what we read tonight, but I just have so many random opinions. I sure do like blogging. No wonder people do it all the time. Endless space to ramble about what you think. Helloooo awesome. 11:11 make a wish. wow it is too late for me, I know only 11:11 but sleep deprovation is cumulative and I will just get progressively worse. I should delete this paragraph. oh well.
I actually did not mind the wine-brandy scene at all! It was nice because it moved quickly (I tend to get lost in thought when I read too much description without action or dialogue) and it was interesting because it, unlike much of the book so far, evoked emotion in me- frustration. I wanted to scream at the WP to tell the jefe to stop drinking the wine! I understand that he was hesitant to say no to a man who could throw him in jail, but at the same time, it's not like the jefe was mean to him. He kept saying "With your permission..." and "If you don't mind..." and WP could have so easily been like "I mind!!!" On another note, like in C and P and many of the books we've read so far, the dream scenes are noteworthy. One in particular, on page 133, caught my attention. It's the one where he keeps banging on the door, but is not allowed in because he cannot remember the password. Is this Mr. Tench's office? I remember that one of the Tench scenes earlier on involved a sick child, and someone knocking on his door, needing a password. Is Greene going to continue revealing bits of this scene as we read on?
Characters seem to largely be characterized by their interactions with the whiskey priest. The priest has no name, at least so far, so he is meant to represent more than a person. He is the most important remnant of religion in the region. He represents the sense of community and tradition that has been systematically wiped out of the area. Padre Jose was also part of this, and it is actually his interaction with the priest that interested me the most. When the priest is running and asks for refuge, Jose turns him away. Jose is being crushed by guilt, and yet when this chance for some redemption comes along, he shuns it. It seemed as though he wanted to reclaim his faith, but I suppose this is not an easy thing to do for him. If it were, he probably wouldn’t have sold out to begin with. The whiskey priest is far from perfect, but at least he is making an attempt to stay true to his convictions. Jose is incapable of doing this. Maybe he sees an image of what he used to be and is scared, or maybe he is just beyond redemption.
Also, the whiskey priest deeming the lieutenant a good person is interesting. It is an indication that, regardless of how extreme his methods, the lieutenant’s simple intentions are good, and Greene wants us to recognize this. He really cares about people and wants to help them. The priest recognizes this despite the position the lieutenant’s ambitions put him in.
I was a little thrown when I started tonight's reading. Shift to third person omniscient?
The whiskey priest's interactions and the concept of physical intimacy in the novel is really bugging me. When WP was with Maria, touching her arm was taboo, Judas re-incarnated kept groping the priest's feet in a creep-o biblical reference, and now in this section he's knee bumping the beggar. "They might have been great friends or even brothers standing intimately together in the dark" (105). Because he's a priest, he has so many boundaries. His birthmark from God, his irrevocable vocation as a man of the church isolates him, and his day-to-day interactions with people seem odd. I just think that after reading a succession of novels that contained incest and romance, this detachment was strange.
(I could have killed that beggar. "I want wine." "Oh, alright, so I'll go get you some whiskey...")
There was a another shout out to the role of children as messengers (sometimes literally) and a link to the future: "The knowledge of the world lay in [Brigitta] like the dark explicable spot in an X-ray photograph..." (127) I thought that that entire jail scene was a nice change of scenery. His alternating mindset about being discovered is very Raskolnikov-ish, as well as his close calls with law enforcement that make you question the role of fate in the novel.
Also, I'm not really sure what to make of the jailed pious woman. The women in the novel are more prideful and devoted to religion than the men. But, I'm not sure that they're supposed to be revered by the reader. From the tone, they almost seem sadly narrow-minded.
Oh, and I agree with Olivia on her ending note. Padre Jose is such an ass.
I agree that these two chapters reminded me a lot of Crime and Punishment. One thing that is so similar is that both Rasko and the whiskey priest debate confessing to the police (for Rasko, murdering the two women and for W.P. being a priest). In both books, their appear in front of the police for different and totally unrelated reasons, and are not caught. But they both can’t decide. For example, the W.P. tells all his fellow prisoners his secret but then when he faces the lieutenant, he ends up getting money to leave and is not caught. I think both books have this feeling of hopelessness for the main character and a sort of entrapment and circling like vultures, but then when it all should end, it doesn’t, because the lieutenant is so blind.
I also think it’s interesting that both times the priest has cried in the book, others have misinterpreted it. For example, when he is staying with the Fellows’ he begins to cry because he is so frustrated and tired, but an old man sees this and tells the people in the village that the priest is crying for their sins. Then in chapter 2, he cries after the Governor’s cousin drinks all the wine he wanted for mass, but the others attribute this to his being drunk.
Oh and I definitely agree with what Tommy said about the priest representing more than just himself and that’s why he has no name. Greene is definitely commenting on real-life events and uses the whiskey priest to represent what’s left of religion. This is also probably why the lieutenant passes over him; the w.p. no longer physically looks how priests are supposed to look, but he has changed to represent what has happened to religion.
10 comments:
The fact that the whiskey priest says that the lieutenant is a good man at the end of tonight’s reading really shows how selfless he is. We have evidence from before of this, as he continued the mass when being surrounded and he was sympathetic towards the mestizo even though he believed him to be betraying him. This last chapter is about finding optimism in the least likely of places, as the priest finds companionship and sympathy from men in the jail. It’s a very ironic situation, especially when the religious woman comes across as the negative force in the jail. After a scene of finding good in the seemingly bad, it makes sense to end the chapter with the priest finding good in the lieutenant when he is seemingly bad to both the priest and to the reader.
There is also a great amount of dramatic irony in the situation because the lieutenant gives the man he detests and is searching for money – that just makes me think that when he finally does find and recognize the priest, the lieutenant will most likely be even more mad because he has now passed over him twice.
Also, I have to mention the drinking scene. Greene uses the wine as a bridge between the religious aspects of the whiskey priest’s life and the sins of his life, which is characterized by his weakness for alcohol. Greene connects the things the priest is proud of with the things he is ashamed of in this scene, where he so desperately wants the wine for mass but also observes it being consumed in the same way that caused the degradation of his self-worth.
Oh, and Padre Jose is being apathetic again. Shocking.
Ok, I would like to start with the complete and utter pointlessness of the conversation about alcohol. I was so unbelievably irritated by this 10 or 11 page long surplus of random dialogue. However, the plot after this conversation made up for it. I was intrigued by the next few scenes (the chase, in the prison, meeting up with the beggar again, etc). But throughout all of these insightful lines and descriptive narration, there is one specific line that I cannot get over. When the lieutenant is talking to the WP (then called Montez) and tells him to keave the jail. "...He asked 'Where are you going?' 'God knows.' 'You are all alike, you people. You never learn the truth - that God knows nothing.'" The reason I was disturbed by this is that the lieutenant is supposedly anti-god and religion, considering that he is heading a sector of policemen raging a war against the institution, and yet he exclaims that God knows nothing. This statement points out that he indeed believes God exists. Otherwise, how could a nonexistent figure know or not know anything. Maybe I am reading too much into this, but it makes me wonder about the police force and their role in all of this.
It seems that most of the people in the jail (minus the "pleasured couple") hold religion above all else, and, if it had not been pitch black would have, stared at him in wonder and awe. Even when the WP exclaims that he is not a martyr in any way, specifically the pious woman tells him that he is wrong, despite his sins. Then, according to the previous quote, the policemen raid homes, towns, and bars for any christian item or holy person and have a large sum of money on the WP's head, but they believe that God exists. It makes their entire expedition pointless.
I thought that the previous chapter’s narration was very introspective. The reader hears the priest’s thoughts and self-observations. However, the beginning of this chapter’s narration is different. It is more about the actions of the priest rather than his thoughts. There is a lot more dialogue in this chapter than in previous chapters.
The whole scene with the alcohol is interesting. The priest’s desire to get the wine for the mass really actually gave him a purpose. For some reason he never really seemed all that much like a priest. However, his desire to obtain the wine for the service really made me believe that he wanted to be a priest. Yet, he fails to obtain the wine after the Governor’s cousin and the jefe drink all of the wine. This again leaves the priest with no purpose and an uncertainty of what to do now.
The fact that the Lieutenant keeps letting the priest get away is getting annoying. It is ironic that he is so determined to find the priest, however, he cannot recognize the priest after seeing him for the second time. I think that the Lieutenant is too determined and focused.
I agree with Olivia that it is really ironic that the Lieutenant gives the priest some money.
Ok so there was a part of chapter two that seemed very Crime and Punishment-esque to me. The beggar is saying how he sometimes wishes he could kill other people for food, and while the other people say it would be wrong, he justifies it by saying that a man has to do what he can to eat. The whole idea of justifying how much someone else's life is worth was nearly identical to the philosophies that were the basis of Crime and Punishment.
I also thought the interaction between the whiskey priest and padre jose (who i originally thought were the same person) was very interesting. It distinguishes the differences between them and finally characterizes the whiskey priest as a PRIEST. "'You're a good man, Jose. I've always known that.'" is probably the most priest-ish thing he has said the whole novel, and shows the differences between them he had discussed in the previous chapter.
Also, the wine vs. brandy thing was really annoying. It makes sense why he would want wine and all, but did they really have to spend like twenty pages emphasizing this?
I agree with Zoe that the voice of the novel shifts back to being detached in the chapter two. IT simply describes and narrates what happends to the Whiskey Priest.
The recurring theme of wine associated with religion in present again in the second chapter. The wine represents the religion. the Governor's cousin stands for the present persecution of religion by drinking away the wine. The priest, although much neglegent about the religion before, feels sorrow, making him a preserver of the religion.
The third chapter reminded me of Crime and Punishment. The Whiskey priest makes me recall Raskolnikov and the lieutenant is like Porfiry; Porfiry and the lieutenant both are extremely determined and eager to catch Raskol and the priest but both let their subjects pass because of some weird coincidence or mistake.
the whiskey priest seems to be like Raskolnikov in many ways. They both spend a vast majority of their time pondering philosophical questions. They look for meaning in their lives and search for answers to questions that many would prefere to leave alone, questions that cannot be answered. Such as can one life be deemed 'more important' than another, and thus is it ever right or just to take one life to spare another. They both at times see themselves as extraordinary, or possessing some greater purpose. Both struggle with religion, though in different senses. I'd be really interested to see how these two characters would get along. What would they talk about in coversation? Would they be more likely to agree on things or disagree? Would they just sit in silence staring at one another pondering the other and the world? Hmm.
The title of the book has really got me interested "The Power and The Glory" ... yes from the Lord's prayer, but in context very interesting. People in this place seem to have very little power and very little glory, and thus they find themselves unable to put faith in religion, however often in religion the point is that suffering on earth, and stilling living piously will lead to eternal happiness in the kingdom of heaven. Save for Mrs. Fellows, few people seem to find this to be adequate solace, or enough motivation to live by the church's doctrine when faced with adversity. Interesting.
Sidenote - If they mention vultures one more time it is going to get ugly!
I feel bad for the whiskey preist. But I must say the lieutenant fascinates me endlessly. His view of the world, his perception of what his duty is, his reasoning for everything make him one of my favorite characters. Unlike Porifry who was doing his job but i hated because I just didn't like his vibe, the lieutenant has something about him. And i think the whiskey priest sees that too, which is why he calls him a good man. I also feel that teh whiskey priest can't balme the lieutenant for his beliefs because he proves all of them. Thus though they do not agree with the other's religious philosophys they can agree that the WP has sinned, and should be held responsible for that.
It's funny how a book about so many apathetic people has got me so riled up.
This blog post is kind of ranty, and I haven't said much about what we read tonight, but I just have so many random opinions. I sure do like blogging. No wonder people do it all the time. Endless space to ramble about what you think. Helloooo awesome. 11:11 make a wish. wow it is too late for me, I know only 11:11 but sleep deprovation is cumulative and I will just get progressively worse. I should delete this paragraph. oh well.
I actually did not mind the wine-brandy scene at all! It was nice because it moved quickly (I tend to get lost in thought when I read too much description without action or dialogue) and it was interesting because it, unlike much of the book so far, evoked emotion in me- frustration. I wanted to scream at the WP to tell the jefe to stop drinking the wine! I understand that he was hesitant to say no to a man who could throw him in jail, but at the same time, it's not like the jefe was mean to him. He kept saying "With your permission..." and "If you don't mind..." and WP could have so easily been like "I mind!!!"
On another note, like in C and P and many of the books we've read so far, the dream scenes are noteworthy. One in particular, on page 133, caught my attention. It's the one where he keeps banging on the door, but is not allowed in because he cannot remember the password. Is this Mr. Tench's office? I remember that one of the Tench scenes earlier on involved a sick child, and someone knocking on his door, needing a password. Is Greene going to continue revealing bits of this scene as we read on?
Characters seem to largely be characterized by their interactions with the whiskey priest. The priest has no name, at least so far, so he is meant to represent more than a person. He is the most important remnant of religion in the region. He represents the sense of community and tradition that has been systematically wiped out of the area. Padre Jose was also part of this, and it is actually his interaction with the priest that interested me the most. When the priest is running and asks for refuge, Jose turns him away. Jose is being crushed by guilt, and yet when this chance for some redemption comes along, he shuns it. It seemed as though he wanted to reclaim his faith, but I suppose this is not an easy thing to do for him. If it were, he probably wouldn’t have sold out to begin with. The whiskey priest is far from perfect, but at least he is making an attempt to stay true to his convictions. Jose is incapable of doing this. Maybe he sees an image of what he used to be and is scared, or maybe he is just beyond redemption.
Also, the whiskey priest deeming the lieutenant a good person is interesting. It is an indication that, regardless of how extreme his methods, the lieutenant’s simple intentions are good, and Greene wants us to recognize this. He really cares about people and wants to help them. The priest recognizes this despite the position the lieutenant’s ambitions put him in.
I was a little thrown when I started tonight's reading. Shift to third person omniscient?
The whiskey priest's interactions and the concept of physical intimacy in the novel is really bugging me. When WP was with Maria, touching her arm was taboo, Judas re-incarnated kept groping the priest's feet in a creep-o biblical reference, and now in this section he's knee bumping the beggar. "They might have been great friends or even brothers standing intimately together in the dark" (105). Because he's a priest, he has so many boundaries. His birthmark from God, his irrevocable vocation as a man of the church isolates him, and his day-to-day interactions with people seem odd. I just think that after reading a succession of novels that contained incest and romance, this detachment was strange.
(I could have killed that beggar. "I want wine." "Oh, alright, so I'll go get you some whiskey...")
There was a another shout out to the role of children as messengers (sometimes literally) and a link to the future: "The knowledge of the world lay in [Brigitta] like the dark explicable spot in an X-ray photograph..." (127) I thought that that entire jail scene was a nice change of scenery. His alternating mindset about being discovered is very Raskolnikov-ish, as well as his close calls with law enforcement that make you question the role of fate in the novel.
Also, I'm not really sure what to make of the jailed pious woman. The women in the novel are more prideful and devoted to religion than the men. But, I'm not sure that they're supposed to be revered by the reader. From the tone, they almost seem sadly narrow-minded.
Oh, and I agree with Olivia on her ending note. Padre Jose is such an ass.
I agree that these two chapters reminded me a lot of Crime and Punishment. One thing that is so similar is that both Rasko and the whiskey priest debate confessing to the police (for Rasko, murdering the two women and for W.P. being a priest). In both books, their appear in front of the police for different and totally unrelated reasons, and are not caught. But they both can’t decide. For example, the W.P. tells all his fellow prisoners his secret but then when he faces the lieutenant, he ends up getting money to leave and is not caught. I think both books have this feeling of hopelessness for the main character and a sort of entrapment and circling like vultures, but then when it all should end, it doesn’t, because the lieutenant is so blind.
I also think it’s interesting that both times the priest has cried in the book, others have misinterpreted it. For example, when he is staying with the Fellows’ he begins to cry because he is so frustrated and tired, but an old man sees this and tells the people in the village that the priest is crying for their sins. Then in chapter 2, he cries after the Governor’s cousin drinks all the wine he wanted for mass, but the others attribute this to his being drunk.
Oh and I definitely agree with what Tommy said about the priest representing more than just himself and that’s why he has no name. Greene is definitely commenting on real-life events and uses the whiskey priest to represent what’s left of religion. This is also probably why the lieutenant passes over him; the w.p. no longer physically looks how priests are supposed to look, but he has changed to represent what has happened to religion.
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